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Public Health (Alcohol) 2015

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Postby oreils87 » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:40 pm

Saruman wrote:It's not perfect of course. Dodgy invoicing can see the cost to supermarkets made artificially low to allow them to get around a below cost selling ban but that can be dealt with by using proper scrutiny.



With Tesco's under the spotlight from their fraudulent revenue claims, Other supermarkets wont be too quick to start playing around with accounts. So proper scrutiny may already be happening in the background.
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Postby Saruman » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:47 pm

Hope so.

The ABFI have also responded I see. Looks like they agree with the return of the groceries order.

Alcohol Beverage Federation of Ireland responds to Opinion by the Advocate General of the European Court of Justice on the issue of minimum unit pricing (MUP).

“The Alcohol Beverage Federation of Ireland (ABFI) takes note of today’s Opinion by the Advocate General of the European Court of Justice on the issue of minimum unit pricing (MUP).

“We are wholly against the sale of cheap alcohol, and our members want to work with government to find a solution that will effectively address its sale in this country. We believe that a ban on the below cost selling of alcohol is that solution to addressing the sale of cheap alcohol.

“The issues pertaining to alcohol misuse are complex, and cannot be addressed by price alone. The reality is that Ireland already has the most expensive alcohol in the EU (source: Eurostat).

“We would invite the Department of Health, and the various lobby groups that it funds, to prioritise finding an effective solution to tackle the sale of cheap alcohol; and engaging with us to that end.”
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Postby andrew » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:48 pm

"Yves Bot, said minimum pricing would be legal only if it could be shown that no other mechanism, such as increasing taxes, was capable of delivering the desired public health benefits."

It's strange that the Yvesbot didn't suggest lowering taxes as a possible method of delivering the desired public health benefits.
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Postby Tube » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:49 pm

Saruman wrote:3. Bring back the groceries order, at least for alcohol.

Option 3 is my preference. Below cost selling is hurting independent off-licences


Two wrongs don't make a right though, and protectionism is always wrong.
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Postby Saruman » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:56 pm

Advocate General aside (not exactly political), out of curiosity, has any politician ever suggested such a thing? It was would be seen as political suicide by most, although I wonder if it actually would be?
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Postby Saruman » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:58 pm

Tube wrote:
Saruman wrote:3. Bring back the groceries order, at least for alcohol.

Option 3 is my preference. Below cost selling is hurting independent off-licences


Two wrongs don't make a right though, and protectionism is always wrong.


:o
I would disagree that protectionism is always wrong. The microbrewery 50% duty rebate is a form of protectionism. Are you suggesting that this is wrong and should be abolished?
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Postby oblivious » Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:05 pm

Saruman wrote:Advocate General aside (not exactly political), out of curiosity, has any politician ever suggested such a thing? It was would be seen as political suicide by most, although I wonder if it actually would be?


They are the legal advisers for the commission, so Ireland would want a good reason/need to disregard their advice
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Postby Saruman » Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:13 pm

oblivious wrote:They are the legal advisers for the commission, so Ireland would want a good reason/need to disregard their advice


That was in response to.
andrew wrote:It's strange that the Yvesbot didn't suggest lowering taxes as a possible method of delivering the desired public health benefits.
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Postby Saruman » Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:15 pm

By the way, I merged the topic from the Beoir member forum as there were two active topics on the same subject.

This was the start of it.
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Postby Tube » Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:40 pm

Saruman wrote:
Tube wrote:
Saruman wrote:3. Bring back the groceries order, at least for alcohol.

Option 3 is my preference. Below cost selling is hurting independent off-licences


Two wrongs don't make a right though, and protectionism is always wrong.


:o
I would disagree that protectionism is always wrong. The microbrewery 50% duty rebate is a form of protectionism. Are you suggesting that this is wrong and should be abolished?

No straw man arguments please!

The type of people who are buying slabs of Heino from Tesco are probably not the same people who are buying craft beer from indy offies.

Bear in mind the goal of this is to reduce consumption, not to boost business for small offies.
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Postby Saruman » Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:07 pm

Craft beer is irrelevant to the discussion.

Independent offies make their money on bread and butter items like slabs of heino.

Your point on all forms of protectionism being wrong was incredibly unclear so I had to take it at face value.

Perhaps you could clarify exactly what you meant? Then we can avoid confusion and get back on track. :P
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Postby Tube » Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:38 pm

The point of this proposed Bill is to reduce consumption. Protectionism distorts the market, usually for the benefit of a one vested interest over another. Off-licences being forced to close at 10pm benefited publicans, at the expense of consumers and offies.

Don't distort the market, it will eventually go wrong for everyone except that one vested interest who stands to gain.
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Postby sbillings » Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:54 pm

As usual, everyone is taking it as axiomatic that supermarkets have been selling alcohol below cost, which I don't actually think has ever been proven to be the case. I'm open to correction here, of course.

But, for the sake of argument, let's assume that there has been some below cost selling going on.

The independent offies are still deluded if they think they can compete with the supermarkets on price, even with a ban on below cost selling.

The supermarkets have vast central purchasing power, so they can buy their beer cheaper than the independents can. They can then sell that beer at cost (if they are willing to sell below cost they would certainly be willing to sell at cost), which is actually lower than the cost price of the independents.

As the independents want to make a profit on the beer they sell they would have to mark up their beer from their already higher cost price.

Independents quite simply cannot sell their beer as cheap as a supermarket which is willing to forgo profit on such a sale.
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Postby mr happy » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:35 pm

oreils87 wrote:With Tesco's under the spotlight from fraudulent revenue claims, Other supermarkets wont be too quick to start playing around with accounts. So proper scrutiny may already be happening in the background.


Rebates are a fact of life in retail - Tesco got into trouble because they accounted for the revenue too soon, not because they solicited rebates.





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Postby Will_D » Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:06 pm

Well I think that this EU directive/whatever is playing STRAIGHT into the hands of governments.

If you set a minimum alcohol unit price it will stop "below cost selling" and will NOT affect the price of decent drink in the offies. The cost of good beers/wines/spirits should not increase as a result of this BCS legislation.

The alternative ALREADY proposed by this statement is to increase the revenue on all alcohol so that WILL increase ALL our drinks prices - just to stop the Efin Knacker drinkers!

Of course the government will be laughing all the way to the bank
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